duckhunter ([info]duckhunter) wrote,
@ 2006-08-15 11:39:00
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Part I: Hooray, Honesty!!
Not much time at the moment, but check out Eric B.'s observations on sexism in comics over at WebSnark.

Hits the nail on the head, it does. And I would LOVE to see some of the Topsy-Turvy comics that he suggests, because I think the reaction would be... well... just like he says.

-DH

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[info]urocyon
2006-08-15 07:05 pm UTC (link)
No, there's a very good reason not to swap costume styles around. It looks retarded.

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[info]igor_louis
2006-08-15 10:44 pm UTC (link)
Y'know, I don't see it as a problem. For the great percentage of comics readers, that's what they want to see. Does it matter to me? Hell, if I want material to fulfill fantasies, I'm sure as hell not gonna flip open a drawn and colored comic book. Not when adult porn, which comes under many of the same headings, is available.
Would any sane person dress that way? Or look at it this way: Spandex...it's a privilege, not a right.
I have the same type of problem with some fiction books, which I'm not going to go into right now.
It's there to fill a niche. That's what the higher percentage of people want to see. If it bothers him, then he should stop purchasing/reading the comic books. Our society is never going to lose the sexist bent that it has. Let me emphasize, SOCIETY.
About half the way through the posting, I felt that he was just ranting to hear himself rant. Oh, and to be able to write "penis" down about 25 times and have people reading it over and over again.

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[info]duckhunter
2006-08-16 02:57 pm UTC (link)
Well, I think that was his point - That there IS sexism in comics, but that's the nature of the beast. You can't say there isn't sexism (as demonstrated by the 'Gender Bend the Heroes' bit), but that it's not some freakish sexist agenda that's being pushed. It's just a freakin' comic book.

As he admitted - He plays female characters in City of Heroes because he likes the way they look. A firmly sexist statement. :)

I just like the description of some of the 'scary' costume. :)

-DH

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[info]astraldreamgirl
2006-08-18 06:16 pm UTC (link)
Y'know, I don't see it as a problem. For the great percentage of comics readers, that's what they want to see...It's there to fill a niche.

I can't imagine anyone using that argument to defend racism. The existence of bigoted or misogynistic people with money to spend doesn't naturally mean they should be catered to. There's a niche for snuff films too.

Hell, if I want material to fulfill fantasies, I'm sure as hell not gonna flip open a drawn and colored comic book. Not when adult porn, which comes under many of the same headings, is available.

Comics' inadequacy as wank material is irrelevent to whether they suffer from misogyny.

If it bothers him, then he should stop purchasing/reading the comic books. Our society is never going to lose the sexist bent that it has. Let me emphasize, SOCIETY.

Yeah, and we're always going to have war and poverty so we shouldn't do anything to alleviate them either. Do you have some kind of time machine that shows you the future and allows you to make those kind of absolute predictions? And what's with this idea that comics aren't part of our society's culture? It's funny, comic book fans are the only people who defend their hobby by claiming how worthless (and therefore exempt from criticism) it is.

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[info]igor_louis
2006-08-18 07:53 pm UTC (link)
::sighs quietly::
First of all, I don't believe in engaging in snarky debates on the comments section of a friend's page, so this will be very brief.
1) I find it highly amusing that someone with anime icons would be attacking comics (American comics).
2) If you're going to equate racism with sexism, you should announce that at the beginning so people don't shake their heads in confusion. Because they are different. Check out the dictionary.
'Nuff said.

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[info]duckhunter
2006-08-19 03:53 pm UTC (link)
Whoa. New reader. Hi. :)

I'll just take this one thing at a time:

I can't imagine anyone using that argument to defend racism. The existence of bigoted or misogynistic people with money to spend doesn't naturally mean they should be catered to. There's a niche for snuff films too.

Making a jump from Captain America to a snuff film. Interesting.

Actually, the point is to cater to the people with money. That's how one stays in business. Even snuff films.

But, last time I checked, no one has ever read an episode of Iron Man and then went out and raped and/or killed someone because of it. Yeah, there was I few times during the 'War Machine' years that I wanted to kill someone, but that wasn't because of sexism. It was because the writing was kinda not-good.

Comics' inadequacy as wank material is irrelevent to whether they suffer from misogyny.

I'm not really going after the 'wank' angle here, but bringing up your choice of words. This is the second time you've used the word "misogyny" (or one of it's other forms), but the original Eric Burns essay doesn't touch on that.

Let's go to m-w.com for a brief moment, shall we?

Main Entry: mi·sog·y·ny
Pronunciation: m&-'sä-j&-nE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misogynia, from misein to hate + gynE woman -- more at QUEEN
: a hatred of women

And..

Main Entry: sex·ism
Pronunciation: 'sek-"si-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: 1sex + -ism (as in racism)
1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Not quite the same thing here. I guarantee that the people who work in the comic book industry don't hate women. If that was the case, you wouldn't have Wonder Woman, and Lois Lane would be a shallowly written holster for Clark Kent's Love Gun. That's not the case.

Yeah, and we're always going to have war and poverty so we shouldn't do anything to alleviate them either. Do you have some kind of time machine that shows you the future and allows you to make those kind of absolute predictions? And what's with this idea that comics aren't part of our society's culture? It's funny, comic book fans are the only people who defend their hobby by claiming how worthless (and therefore exempt from criticism) it is.

You're swinging that broad brush all over the place, ain't ya?

Comics can, and will, change as society does. If you can get a hold of them, look at some issues of Lois Lane: Superman's Girlfriend comics from the fifties. Now, how many of those types of comics do you see out now? None. Heck, look at some original Wonder Woman comics next to the ones of today - Princess Diana ain't what she used to be. Sure, she's wearing next to no clothes and has huge breasts, but she's smart and strong now.

And comics aren't exempt for critism. But most people who read and collect comics realize that it's just a harmless hobby. I've been reading comics most of my life, and I don't judge women in real life based off the drawings and attitudes of someone else.

Acknowledging a problem is not the same thing as encouraging a problem. Mr. Burns was initially pointing out that, yes, there is still sexism in comics. He pointed out the problem, but was uncertain how to (or if) there really was a way to fix it. Or even if it was worth the effort of fixing.

Do you have any suggestions on how to fix it? I mean, other than making a comic with a strong female lead (like 'She-Hulk') that will be cancelled due to poor sales in 3 years (like 'She-Hulk')?

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